Gospels Not Written By Matthew, Mark, Luke or John

Christians believe that the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) were written by those whose names appear in the title of the books. Most also believe that they were written in the same order as they appear in the Bible.

The Truth is …

No Mention of Gospels Until 2nd Century

There are extant writings accredited to the Apostolic Fathers, Clement of Rome, Barnabas, Hermas, Ignatius, and Polycarp; written, for the most part, early in the second century. These writings contain no mention of the Four Gospels. This also is admitted by Christian scholars. Dr. Dodwell says: “We have at this day certain most authentic ecclesiastical writers of the times, as Clemens Romanus, Barnabas, Hermas, Ignatius, and Polycarp, who wrote in the order wherein I have named them, and after all the writers of the New Testament. But in Hermas you will not find one passage or any mention of the New Testament, nor in all the rest is any one of the Evangelists named” (Dissertations upon Irenaeus).

The Four Gospels were unknown to the early Christian Fathers. Justin Martyr, the most eminent of the early Fathers, wrote about the middle of the second century. His writings in proof of the divinity of Christ demanded the use of these Gospels had they existed in his time. He makes more than three hundred quotations from the books of the Old Testament, and nearly one hundred from the Apocryphal books of the New Testament; but none from the Four Gospels. The Rev. Dr. Giles says: “The very names of the Evangelists, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, are never mentioned by him [Justin] — do not occur once in all his writings” (Christian Records, p. 71).

Even though the Gospels go under the names of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, they were, in fact, written anonymously. These names first appeared in the second century and were assigned to the anonymous writings  to give the writings apostolic authority. The Gospel of Mark was written before any of the other canonical gospels and was written after the fall of the second temple  which occurred in 70 CE.

Theophilus, who wrote after the middle of the latter half of the second century, mentions the Gospel of John, and Irenaeus, who wrote a little later, mentions all of the Gospels, and makes numerous quotations from them. In the latter half of the second century, then, between the time of Justin and Papias, and the time of Theophilus and Irenaeus, the Four Gospels were undoubtedly written or compiled.

These books are anonymous. They do not purport to have been written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Their titles do not affirm it. They simply imply that they are “according” to the supposed teachings of these Evangelists. As Renan says, “They merely signify that these were the traditions proceeding from each of these Apostles, and claiming their authority.” Concerning their authorship the Rev. Dr. Hooykaas says: “They appeared anonymously. The titles placed above them in our Bibles owe their origin to a later ecclesiastical tradition which deserves no confidence whatever” (Bible for Learners, Vol. III, p. 24).

(The previous four paragraphs were shamelessly borrowed from “The Christ” by John E. Remsberg. )

The Gospel According To Mark

The Gospel According to Mark is the most important of the synoptic gospels because it is the primary source for Matthew and Luke. Seventy six percent of Mark is reproduced almost word-for-word in both Matthew and Luke. An additional 18% of Mark is reproduced in Matthew but not in Luke, and an further 3% of Mark is in Luke but not in Matthew. This means that 97% of Mark is reproduced in Matthew and/or Luke.

Matthew contains 606 of Mark’s 661 verses. Luke contains 320 of Mark’s 661 verses. Of the 55 verses of Mark which Matthew does not reproduce, Luke reproduces 31; therefore there are only 24 verses in all of Mark not reproduced somewhere in Matthew or Luke.

Much of what is present  in this section I learned from a Christian with excellent credentials, Ian Bond, who who closes his webpage with “Yours, In Christ”. His web page, “Who Wrote The Synoptic Gospels” is much better and shorter than mine. I encourage you to read what he has to say and then come back. The diagram below is lifted, without permission, from his writings. I hope he is understanding. Clicking on the diagram takes you to his website, so it’s kinda like not copying it.

Relationship_between_synoptic_gospels

Who Wrote Mark and What Were His Sources?

Not even the Bible claims that Mark was an eye witness to Jesus’ ministry. Modern, non Christian biblical  scholars believe that the gospel of Mark was written in Syria by an unknown Christian no earlier than AD 70, using various sources including a passion narrative (probably written), collections of miracles stories (oral or written), apocalyptic traditions (probably written), and disputations and didactic sayings (some possibly written). These stories were in circulation year after year, told in different languages and in different countries from that of Jesus.

That’s it. The source for the gospel of Mark is other peoples’ stories and writings. In other words, all of Mark’s sources were at best, second hand, more likely fifth or sixth hand. What happens to stories that circulate orally for years? Obviously, they come to be changed in the retelling. Thus, the source for much of the synoptic gospels is no more than hearsay.

Apologists dismiss the charge of “hearsay” by pointing to the strength of the “oral tradition”. The simple childhood game of “Telephone” is sufficient to illustrate the point that stories told mouth to mouth for 35 years or more can’t possibly retain their original content.

The Gospel of Mark is the first of the Gospels to proffer quotes allegedly from Jesus. We question how authentic these quotes could possibly be, given the convoluted path from Jesus’ lips to “Marks” writing and the years that passed since the words were allegedly spoken. We have written a treatise on the impossibilities of Jesus’ actual words being accurately recorded 40+ years after they were spoken.

Click HERE  to read more about who wrote the gospel of Mark.

Who Wrote Matthew and What Were The  Sources?

By the end of the 2nd century the tradition of Matthew the tax-collector had become widely accepted, and the line “The Gospel According to Matthew” began to be added to manuscripts. For many reasons scholars today believe otherwise—fifty five percent of the gospel is copied from Mark, and it seems unlikely that an eyewitness of Jesus’ ministry would need to rely on others for information about it.  They believe instead that it was written between about 80–90 AD by a highly educated Jew, intimately familiar with the technical aspects of Jewish law, standing on the boundary between traditional and non-traditional Jewish values.

A widespread theory holds that the author drew on three primary sources, each representing a distinct community: a hypothetical collection, or several collections, of sayings (called “Q“, and shared with Luke); the Gospel of Mark; and material unique to Matthew (called “M”, some of which may have originated with Matthew himself).

He wrote for a Jewish audience: like “Q” and “M”, he stresses the continuing relevance of the Jewish law; unlike Mark he never bothers to explain Jewish customs; and unlike Luke, who traces Jesus’s ancestry back to Adam, father of the human race, he traces it only to Abraham, father of the Jews. The fact that his linage differs significantly from that of Luke is a real problem for those who claim that the Holy Spirit’s hand guided the writers of the gospels.

The content of “M” suggests that the community for which this gospel was written, was stricter than the others in its attitude to keeping the Jewish law, holding that they must exceed the scribes and the Pharisees in “righteousness” (adherence to Jewish law); and of the three only “M” refers to a “church” (ecclesia), an organised group with rules for keeping order. Biblical scholars generally hold that Matthew was composed between the years c. 70 and 100.

Click HERE  to read more about who wrote Matthew.

Who Wrote Luke and What Were the Sources?

Most modern critical scholarship concludes that Luke used the Gospel of Mark for his chronology and a hypothetical sayings source Q document for many of Jesus’ teachings. Luke may also have drawn from independent written records. Traditional Christian scholarship has dated the composition of the gospel to the early 60s, while higher criticism dates it to the later decades of the 1st century. While the traditional view that Paul’s companion Luke authored the gospel is still often put forward, a number of possible contradictions between Acts and Paul’s letters lead many scholars to dispute this account.

Click  HERE to read more about who wrote Luke.

Who Wrote John and What Were the Sources?

John differs significantly from the synoptic gospels in theme, content, time duration, order of events, and style. Only ca. 8% of it is parallel to these other gospels, and even then, no such word-for-word parallelism occurs as we find among the synoptic gospels. The Gospel of John reflects a Christian tradition that is different from that of the other gospels. It was rejected as heretical by many individuals and groups within the early Christian movement. It was used extensively by the Gnostic Christians. But it was ultimately accepted into the official canon, over many objections. It is now the favorite gospel of many conservative Christians, and the gospel least referred to by many liberal Christians.

They have a totally different agenda in mind for their audience than did the authors of the synoptic gospels. The authors of the synoptic gospels were writing to their fellow Jews and trying to convince them that they could accept Jesus as the Messiah and still remain Jewish.  Matthew even indicates that the men should still be circumcised .

John’s teachings , as summed up in John 3:16 are just the opposite of those of the writers of Mark, Matthew and Luke. Whereas John welcomes anyone into the fold, Mark, Matthew and Luke write for and to  Jews only.   They see Jesus as the Jewish Messiah who has come to return Israel to its former glory.

The gospel identifies its author as “the disciple whom Jesus loved.” The text does not actually name this disciple, but by the beginning of the 2nd century a tradition began to form which identified him with John the Apostle, one of the Twelve (Jesus’s innermost circle). Today the majority of scholars do not believe that John or any other eyewitness wrote it and trace it instead to a “Johannine community” which traced its traditions to John; the gospel itself shows signs of having been composed in three “layers”, reaching its final form about 90-100 AD.

Click HERE to read about who really wrote John

 Bottom Line

The canonical gospels upon which the Christian faith is built, the ones which present the words of Jesus are writings by unknown authors writing to buttress the particular points they wished to make. The quotations allegedly from Jesus were most likely, made up by the authors to support their positions.

  • The titles in our English Bibles are later additions; they are not original to the Gospels themselves.
  • The Gospel narratives are always written in the third person.
  • The tradition that they were written by two disciples (Matthew and John) and by two companions of the apostles (Mark and Luke) is first attested in the 2nd century!
  • What we can say for certain about the authors is that they were all highly educated, literate, Greek-speaking Christians of (at least) the second generation, contrast this with the apostles of Jesus, who were uneducated, lower class, illiterate, Aramaic-speaking peasants.

Even IF the gospels had been written by the “eye-witness” apostles, Matthew and John, it is unlikely that they reported everything accurately. Remember that their “testimony” comes thirty years (Matthew) and sixty years (John) after the fact. This would-be “eyewitness” testimony is, at a minimum, 30 years after the events it purports to describe and the authors were in or nearing their dotage. In any event,  recent research has found that eyewitness testimony is not reliable. Read an excerpt from an article entitled “34 Years Later, Supreme Court Will Revisit Eyewitness IDs” By Adam Liptak Published: August 22, 2011, NY Times.

Discrepancies And The Holy Spirit

Irrespective of the above, Christians argue that the authors of the Gospels and in fact the authors of all the books of the Bible, were guided by the Holy Spirit and therefore cannot be in error regardless of who wrote the words. We would like to throw out just a few of the discrepancies that one finds between the same story told by the different authors.

  • For example, the accounts of Jesus’ birth in Matthew and Luke are strikingly different from each other.
  • In addition to major discrepancies in Luke’s and Matthew’s versions of the birth of Jesus, and his family’s relocation from Bethlehem to Nazareth, there are historical problems.
    • These include the nature of the miraculous star in Matthew that leads the wise men to the exact location of Jesus’ birth, and the census in Luke that required knowing where one’s ancestors were from. Moreover, this census involved the entire Roman Empire, and there is no account of such a huge census anywhere except in Luke.
  • The genealogy  of Jesus given to us by Matthew is much different that the genealogy given by Luke.
  • John has Jesus teaching for three years; Mark, Matthew and Luke present a one year ministry.
  • Mark and Luke follow this with an account of teaching and healing in Galilee, then a trip to Jerusalem where there is an incident in the Temple climaxing with the crucifixion on the day of the Passover holiday.
  • John, by contrast, puts the Temple incident very early in Jesus’ ministry, has several trips to Jerusalem, and puts the crucifixion immediately before the Passover holiday, on the day when the lambs for the Passover meal were being sacrificed in Temple.
  • And the accounts of Jesus’ death in Mark and Luke are strikingly different.

Additional Proof Can be Found Here

A 606 page treatise entitled The Rejection of Pascal’s Wager completely presents the evidence for the fact that the Books of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John were not written by who Christians think they were. The book presents massive evidence from real biblical scholars (those who did not attend Moody Bible College or Dallas Theological Seminary, et. al.) that the authorship of the Gospels is unknown.

 

96 comments on “Gospels Not Written By Matthew, Mark, Luke or John

  1. Will says:

    I think your sources are way off unfortunately. Show me where it is indicated outside of a guess that the titles to the Gospels κατα (the author) on the originals. Who put them on in the 2nd century? Not a lot behind that. The Mark as source work is more than likely true but it has to be written before 70 AD. You need to put more sources behind some of your statements and also show the other options. Don’t speech matter of fact because it just causes division. Much love in Christ. (Also I haven’t read any of these comments and don’t plan to so I won’t respond to them – just a helpful note to the author)

    • Frank Trevor says:

      Will: The fact is you don’t want to believe that the Gospels are anonymous because it interferes with your deluded beliefs.

      Bart Ehrman, the James a Gray Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies at The University of North Carolina covers this subject at the following link:

      http://ehrmanblog.org/why-are-the-gospels-anonymous/

      That said, in terms of historical fact, it doesn’t matter who wrote the gospels because they are deeply flawed, flimsy stories full of inconsistencies, errors and blatant fabrications that were written by non-eyewitnesses from hearsay between 40 and 70 years after Jesus’ purported death in different places in different Christian* sects. (*The word Christian did not manifest until the 2nd century).

      The claims by some believers that Matthew and John were apostles of Jesus are nonsense. All of the four main gospel stories are written in the third person without any use of the first person. This is hardly the action of someone who was present at the time of Jesus, as they would have wanted to shout it from the rooftops. The author of the gospel of Matthew even reports on the recruitment of (the apostle) Matthew, into Jesus’ twelve apostles, using “Him” as opposed to “I” or “Me”.

      Mark was supposedly the secretary of Peter but gives no mention of this, which would be strange as Peter was, according to the gospels, the lead apostle of Jesus. One would have thought a small mention of being with the great man on a daily basis might have been worked into the story?

      Luke was supposedly a physician and travelling companion of Paul. Interestingly he appeared to know more about Jesus than Paul who didn’t appear to know anything about Jesus’ earthly ministry and contradicts Paul on numerous occasions. Many scholars date Acts of the Apostles after the publication of Josephus’ History of the Jews in 94 CE – especially as “Luke” unashamedly plagiarised large parts of his works.

      Bible scholars maintain that the gospel of John was written by more than one author. If it was written by someone who knew Jesus he must have been pretty ancient at the time of writing.

      Each gospel is entitled “The Gospel According to St. Matthew” (St. Mark, St. Luke and St. John). How many authors would do that when applying authorship to their own works?

      What does work against the authenticity of the gospels is that there is not one contemporary, independent report about Jesus. This is remarkable for someone who was meant to heal the sick, raise people from the dead along with many other miracles. He would surely have attracted some attention outside of his followers. Events such as the Slaughter of the Innocents and an earthquake with dead saints raising from the grave and walking the streets (at the time of Jesus’ death) might also have raised some interest.

      The gospels are myth.

      • Frank….

        Well stated. Can I sign you on as a fellow TruthSayer? I would like to put some of your observations into my text. If I don’t hear back from you in 30 days, I’ll assume silence is consent. That works for me.

    • To Will –
      I did show you where I found much of the information. I pointed you to The Rejection of Pascal’s Wager. You really should read Mr. Treavor’s comment. He responds directly to your observations.

      I admit I don’t do a good job of attributing what I say. Because the bible is obviously and flatly opposed to manifest truth, I figure that what I say is so intuitively obvious, it needs no attribution. But I agree, I could/should do better at attributing my sources. Did you look at my Bibliography – accessible from the top menu line. Every fact I state can be found somewhere in those references. I just didn’t want to take the time to be more specific.

  2. mark ledain says:

    I love it when all these people on here that were obviously around 2000 years ago can say for sure that the bible IS nothing but here say and nonsense. No one knows for sure what REALLY happened. No Christian can proove what they believe in and no atheist can disprove it. Guess what christians call their belief – faith, Whats faith? Its hope and trust in something that maybe cannot be proved. Christians really don’t care about all this so called irrefutable proof that people come up these days, like it’s new evidence or something, it’s all been said before and Christians still believe…. and have FAITH, so let’s just leave each other alone a?

    • Frank Trevor says:

      Faith: Look it up, the definition is “Belief without evidence.” Atheists do not believe there is a God, they do not say there isn’t one – two different things. However, those that make a claim about something carry the burden of proof. You Mark, evade the issue by being in a netherland of hope and trust. What is the point of having hope and trust in something that cannot be proved? There is absolutely none. It’s irrational to do so.

      • ensnaturae says:

        All talk about the bible and the bible itself, might vanish and be forgotten for ever, but that is not the significant issue…the bible is ‘about’. God/Jesus..it …is not * god him/her self*. Belief with out evidence, faith…would never be enough, by itself, to give everlasting life to the STORY. That everlasting life is in the the real time evidence of life itself, Love itself. If you have never felt the power of love in action for yourself….then certainly…reading a book ..with jesus as its protagonist.might help you to know what it is. Almost everyone, at some time in their lives, will know the reality of the power of that love in their own life or someone else’s. Once having seen and known it..faith is simply unnecessary. The story ceases to be a story…and becomes factual information..Not as a string of incidents, but at its core…a living truth of life.
        Jesus himself offering unconditional love… Is an embodiment of a truth accessible to man.

      • Frank Trevor says:

        To Ensnaturae: There isn’t a Reply button below your post so I’ve hit the one below mine.

        Your whole post is utter gobbledygook. Essentially you are saying amongst all the drivel you are spouting, that the bible is all about Jesus and his unconditional love. Let me put you straight. Firstly, his love is conditional on believing in him. Failing that condition one goes straight to a lake of fire for eternity. What happens to Atheists, Hindus, Muslims and Jews who are good, honest people who don’t believe in him?

        Furthermore, gentle, merciful loving Jesus is not so meek, mild and loving:

        Jesus said: “If any man come to me and hate not his father, his mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.” Luke 14:26 What happened to honour thy father and thy mother?

        “I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is completed! Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.” Luke 12:49-53 Ahh yes, Peace on earth and goodwill to all men!

        “He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.” John 12.25 A very loving sentiment.

        “I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them…. bring them here and kill them in front of me.” Luke 19:26-27 Thou shalt not kill?

        “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ love those who love them. And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ do that. And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ lend to ‘sinners,’ expecting to be repaid in full. But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.” Luke 6:32-3 Haye those that love you and love your enemies. That makes perfect sense doesn’t it?

        There is plenty more of Jesus hate filled quotes throughout the NT. As for his teaching, I could demonstrate to you his so-called ethical teachings which were either plagiarised by the gospel writers from ancient pagan religious traditions or copied almost verbatim from the OT, eg: The Beatitudes.

        Problem with you is that you are no different to the majority of christians who cherry pick the bits of the bible they like and forget the rest. Or in your case, you probably didn’t know the stuff I quote anyway.

      • ensnaturae says:

        Frank Trevor! You can see from almost every sentence I wrote, from sentence one….that I do not think of the bible as a very important source of information, about god or Jesus.although large chunks of it are ‘about’ both, as I said….Your use of the bible itself …then….to critique my response, is not likely to be relevant to my POV. I hope you understand that. It would be like telling someone they had gone in a wrong direction, when their destination was quite different than the one you choose to point to, on your own map.
        You have no hope at all, in any attempt to demonstrate that I ought, with that view I hold, refer to its rules as my guide. I’m suggesting that you consider the concept of unconditional love, and that in doing so…you are likely to see a man emerge …who resembles Jesus of Nazareth so nearly…as to make it likely to be one and the same.
        The same man you can see in your own reflection, a part of the spirit? Of Everyman…
        Belief in Jesus as *in any way*….. punitive or rejecting, is a contradiction in terms, so great …as to make it clear you and I are definitely not on the same page…

        All talk about the bible and the bible itself, might vanish and be forgotten for ever, but that is not the significant issue…the bible is ‘about’. God/Jesus..it …is not * god him/her self*. Belief with out evidence, faith…would never be enough, by itself, to give everlasting life to the STORY. That everlasting life is in the the real time evidence of life itself, Love itself. If you have never felt the power of love in action for yourself….then certainly…reading a book ..with jesus as its protagonist.might help you to know what it is. Almost everyone, at some time in their lives, will know the reality of the power of that love in their own life or someone else’s. Once having seen and known it..faith is simply unnecessary. The story ceases to be a story…and becomes factual information..Not as a string of incidents, but at its core…a living truth of life.
        Jesus himself offering unconditional love… Is an embodiment of a truth accessible to man.

      • Frank Trevor says:

        Your post makes no rational sense. It is a lot of meaningless words. You’re right, you and I are not on the same page – I don’t think you’re on any page at all.

        “You can see from almost every sentence I wrote, from sentence one….that I do not think of the bible as a very important source of information, about god or Jesus.although large chunks of it are ‘about’ both, as I said….”

        Your only knowledge of Jesus comes from the bible, nowhere else. It is your ONLY source of information because no one else wrote about him. You cannot possibly make any judgments or assertions about him without the bible, and what he purportedly said.

        Once again, Jesus does not offer unconditional love. Anyone who threatens torture for eternity is a monster.

      • ensnaturae says:

        You make a fundamental error Frank Trevor. You have drawn a wrong conclusion. Along with the fellow who has written discussing the accuracy of the gospels and possibility of the spread of xtianity by word of mouth making comparisons with the childhood game of telephones and whispering…who even doubts that after 35 years, spoken reports, could be accurate. Anyone who offers opinions like these seems to me to be so desperately misguided. A child passing on pretended chatter by whispering, with the inevitable distortions…is an exceptionally weak comparison to how it must have felt to be alive, to witness events, to remember them, discuss them, at the time of the earliest martyrs and from the time Jesus was crucified and no longer teaching.
        Can you not put yourself in the place of the people of Jesus’s time? Can you not imagine how it felt to see as a reality… one lone man, without weapons, without an army, without material support of any kind…..standing against the colossal might of the Roman empire and all the major power groups of the day? Can you not imagine how it felt to be counted among the most degraded, unwanted, of outsiders, deseased/sick rejected…and be found loved treated with respect, by this singular man…can you not imagine anyone now, of your own lifetime…behaving in such a way, or how it would affect you? Can you seriously imagine that in 35 or 65 or 500 or 2000 years …people who were witnesses… who had known and seen those things would not have shared and passed on the mind blowing experfience for all time? Told their children …told their friednds and families….
        More importantly. …with NO WRITTEN WORDS AT ALL… LIVED the changes those experiences brought about in thinking and being…!? With no ability to read or write, people of his time would have been changed, become aware, become different people..As they still do, when touched by this magnificent spirit.
        The truth in the story of Jesus, is not in a book!!
        It is a living breathing reality, in you, in all life…You can see it, know it and feel it as real experience…then…you might read the written accounts…Then …you might say, in truth….yes, I know that man!…
        Jesus is real…and here is some writing about him and his followers.
        Just as you might have lived through terrible events of war or epidemic….
        You think those terrible times …like the profoundly moving life of Jesus…are only remembered as written words?!!!
        If people kept completely silent…can you not see how ‘the very stones would cry out’! I think that’s a bible quote!
        Lives, minds, ways of seeing and thinking…were fundamentally, profoundly affected then, just as they will always be….by Love and its tremendous power.
        One man stands confronting a destructive and cruel world…without fear..and gives a permanent, indestructible
        brilliant example.
        Do you believe that you are capable of doing as much? Of living in such a way? Of loving and caring .for the worlds unwanted children..without violence?
        One man who wrote nothing at all…he simp!y LIVED love, was and remains love…Everyone touched by that experience may be moved and changed by it…
        All written words…like mine….are a tiny minuscule reflection …of the real thing. The bible likewise.
        The spirit, the life of Jesus is out there..making changes, loving and caring, …it is real.

        Frank Trevor! You can see from almost every sentence I wrote, from sentence one….that I do not think of the bible as a very important source of information, about god or Jesus.although large chunks of it are ‘about’ both, as I said….Your use of the bible itself …then….to critique my response, is not likely to be relevant to my POV. I hope you understand that. It would be like telling someone they had gone in a wrong direction, when their destination was quite different than the one you choose to point to, on your own map.
        You have no hope at all, in any attempt to demonstrate that I ought, with that view I hold, refer to its rules as my guide. I’m suggesting that you consider the concept of unconditional love, and that in doing so…you are likely to see a man emerge …who resembles Jesus of Nazareth so nearly…as to make it likely to be one and the same.
        The same man you can see in your own reflection, a part of the spirit? Of Everyman…
        Belief in Jesus as *in any way*….. punitive or rejecting, is a contradiction in terms, so great …as to make it clear you and I are definitely not on the same page…

        All talk about the bible and the bible itself, might vanish and be forgotten for ever, but that is not the significant issue…the bible is ‘about’. God/Jesus..it …is not * god him/her self*. Belief with out evidence, faith…would never be enough, by itself, to give everlasting life to the STORY. That everlasting life is in the the real time evidence of life itself, Love itself. If you have never felt the power of love in action for yourself….then certainly…reading a book ..with jesus as its protagonist.might help you to know what it is. Almost everyone, at some time in their lives, will know the reality of the power of that love in their own life or someone else’s. Once having seen and known it..faith is simply unnecessary. The story ceases to be a story…and becomes factual information..Not as a string of incidents, but at its core…a living truth of life.
        Jesus himself offering unconditional love… Is an embodiment of a truth accessible to man.

      • Frank Trevor says:

        It is delusional to believe that you would know and feel the power of Jesus without Christian teachings. Do some research on the human parietal lobe and how it affects people like you. You are a suitable case for treatment.

        On your more recent response regarding my question about being born in another country you present another meaningless response. If you had been born in one of the two countries I mention would you feel the power of Jesus? There is a 99 % chance you would not. Your disingenuous attempt to justify your inability to address the reality of the question is covered up by some nonsense about free will. If you had been born in Pakistan of an everyday muslim family there would be no free will about believing another religion. Apostasy is punishable by death. You would, like the vast majority of the population, believe in the one true prophet and his teachings and Jesus would be nowhere in your mind.

        If you reply, I will not read it because it is a pointless exercise trying to reason with your ludicrous, irrational views.

      • Musanator says:

        Athesist are on a one-way ticket to hell!!!

        Faith is belief without evidence?

        Not so…God is eternal. No beginning, no end. The only way our universe was caused was through him.

        He has attempted to contact his creation through revealtion. Some accepted, others rejected.
        The only true, original and uncensored version of his words can be found in the Quran.

        The Quran exists. The Quran makes bold claims. The Quran is there to be falsified…

        What are you waiting for..?

        Get to it and disprove GOD!!!

  3. ~ A great book I would recommend to all is “Can We Trust The Gospels” by Mark D Roberts.

    How true is the saying “a little knowledge is dangerous” and I could address much of what you have written but will only address this little gem – “The simple childhood game of “Telephone” is sufficient to illustrate the point that stories told mouth to mouth for 35 years or more can’t possibly retain their original content.”

    Let’s think for a moment beyond ourselves, shall we? The cultural norms of the first century were quite different to our own. Here’s an example of how things change in just a few decades. I know 2 phone numbers by heart these days thanks to smart phones, speed dialling etc. When I was an 8 year old child (way back in 1984) I knew around 10 phone numbers by heart and guess what I still know 6 of them, as unnecessary as that information now is.

    In the first century many young Jewish people knew the Torah (the first 5 books of the Bible- Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) in their entirety – word for word by heart. Can you even imagine that? Did you know that since the vast majority of people could not read, oral tradition was how they knew scripture and anything else that was necessary to learn.

    Were the accounts of Jesus whispered ear to ear as the game of telephone is? No they were spoken out loud so that any error in transmission was picked up and corrected by those who had also heard and were responsible for the passing of information.

    Imagine how different the game of telephone would be if it was not whispered from ear to ear – I think it would not be worth playing.I don’t know about you, but whenever I played that game I used to love to deliberately change what I heard, I wonder if I am alone?

    Would the 12 and over 300 that Paul says were eyewitnesses, who believed that Jesus was indeed the son of God deliberately change things to suit themselves ~ to get the most fun from a game? Or would they treat the things that were said and done as sacred? After all they had little to gain by their claims and everything to lose – including their lives and in fact they did.

    At the start of a great book called “All In” by Mark Batterson tells of the gruesome end the Apostles faced. The most striking to me is that Phillip was tortured and crucified by the proconsul of Hierapolis as punishment for preaching and converting his wife and yet he continued to preach from the cross – WOW.

    Lastly – did you know that everything we know of Alexander the Great comes from a source written 300 years after his death! 300 YEARS. It is remarkable how much was written and preserved on papyrus and copied again and again from the first century AD. Some may even suggest it must have taken the hand of God to protect and preserve it.

    Have a smashing day everyone.

    PS. The vast majority of modern Theologians and Historians (Christian and Non Christian) think that Mark was written mid 60’s at the very latest.

    • Taylor says:

      Yea, so I’m really confused. Why do you keep saying the Gospels were not Written By Matthew, Mark, Luke or John. No kidding. Everyone knows that. It’s not a debate nor has it ever been a Christian position. Each book is said to be the passed on memoirs of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John as scribed by others. Now you can argue that and that’s fine but your wording is off. And the fact that you think the modern day whispered telephone game is an accurate reflection of oral tradition back the? Fine. I’ve heard arguments on both sides but you are really rude man. I don’t even want to have a discussion with someone who cannot keep calm and avoid character attacks. I get it, you are angry.

      • Frank Trevor says:

        Taylor: Do some studying outside the bible. The names Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were added in the second century by the early Church to give these anonymously written documents more import. In western seminaries where priests and pastors are trained for the clergy, the students are taught exactly the above, that no one knows who wrote the gospels. Bible scholars give Mark a date after the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE. Matt and Luke 80 to 90 CE and John (scholars believe written by more than one author) at the turn of the second century. Not one of these people were witnesses or ever knew Jesus. They wrote the gospels in Greek from outside of Palestine from the quaintly over used term “Oral Tradition” which is just hearsay. The earliest written information we have about Jesus is from Paul. Why didn’t he mention Jesus ministry, his miracles, the Virgin Birth, The nativity? Probably because those myths hadn’t been invented at that time.

        It is interesting how someone like you when faced with a challenge that you don’t even want to think about, can only describe the challenger as angry. People such as you are addressing along myself are critical thinkers who have studied the history of Christianity and find nothing that provides evidence that any of it is based on fact.

        One would have thought that independent chroniclers and writers, contemporaneous with Jesus, his miracles, raising the dead, healing the sick would have noticed him and written about him. There is nothing.

        You know nothing about the history of your religion.

        https://adversusapologetica.wordpress.com/2013/12/17/why-scholars-doubt-the-traditional-authors-of-the-gospels/

      • Frank Trevor says:

        Typo: In my response to Taylor it should say “along with myself” as opposed to “along myself.”

    • Frank Trevor says:

      What a naive and totally misleading set of statements in your post.

      “Would the 12 and over 300 that Paul says were eyewitnesses, who believed that Jesus was indeed the son of God deliberately change things to suit themselves ~ to get the most fun from a game?” Not to have most fun, but to elaborate and falsify information to make it more acceptable with aim of supporting his historicity and divinity. The Church has a long history of of this deceit.

      “For if the truth of God hath more abounded by my lie unto his glory, why yet am I also adjudged a sinner?” – St. Paul, Romans 3.7.

      “How it may be lawful and fitting to use falsehood as a medicine, and for the benefit of those who want to be deceived.” Eusebius (Bishop of Emperor Constantine).

      “We shall introduce into this history in general only those events which may be useful first to ourselves and afterwards to posterity.” Eusebius.

      “We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides.” Ignatius Loyola.

      “What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church … a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them.” Martin Luther.

      There are plenty more of the above.

      The distortion of oral tradition as per the “Telephone Game” is evident throughout the NT and the non-canonical gospels found at Nag Hammadi. Mark and John know nothing of the Nativity. Matt and Luke tell totally opposing tales – Matt brings in the The Star of Bethlehem, The Wise men, Slaughter of the Innocents, (an important fact such as this would have been chronicled by an independent source, would it not?) Flight to Egypt, and return to Nazareth. Luke has the non-existent census of the Whole World, the Shepherds and a return to Nazareth. Matt and Luke have different genealogies of Jesus, which use Joseph’s lineage, to prove the silly prophecy of the messiah emanating from King David, which is totally irrelevant anyway as Joseph was Jesus’ stepfather and no relation. How do you explain Matt’s Sermon on the Mount and Luke’s Sermon on the Plain? Any distortion of oral tradition there?

      How do you explain Matt’s fraudulent use of totally unrelated prophecies and quotes (EG: The Beatitudes) stolen from the Old Testament?

      John has Jesus’ ministry at three years, the others one year, he has Jesus crucified on a different day to the others. There are many differences between the gospels, in relating the same stories, different stories, geography and history. Paul mentions nothing of Jesus ministry, miracles or anything of the earthly Godman. He contradicts Jesus’ teachings on many occasions. It is evident that Paul knew of no gospels or chose to ignore stories of Jesus that he might have got from the apostles when he allegedly visited them for two weeks. Why?

      You are wrong about the consensus on the date of Mark’s gospel. The majority of independent bible scholars assert that it was written after 70 CE. Also, the primary sources we have of Alexander the Great come from contemporaneous sources, people who knew and soldiered with him – not one of the NT writers knew Jesus or anyone that knew him. (Not one of the gospel writers use the first person singular or plural). There is also archaeological evidence as well as coins with Alexander’s image on them. We know he existed, which is more than can be said for Jesus.

    • Eyeconoclast says:

      There’s a whole independent plausibility check. If the Christian hypothesis is true, the story and message of Christ is the most important thing any person can possibly know. The evidence was apparently adequate to convince some uneducated 1st-Century Roman Empire inhabitants unacquainted with rational thought. So what? Miracle-workers and apocalyptic prophets were common and popular in that world.

      However, how could Jesus (or his dad) possibly have concluded that this poor evidence should be adequate to persuade a rational 21st Century person? Even the believers must concede that the skeptics on this site display impressive knowledge of Christian historicity, orders of magnitude beyond that of the typical Christian. The proof is in the pudding: some 2000 years after the alleged events, fewer than a third of humans buy into the Christ story in any form. Among Christians, there are Catholics, 30,000+ Protestant sects, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, … with wildly conflicting theologies and many claiming all the others are going to hell.

      It would be trivially easy for Jesus to convince me of the truth of the scriptures. Jesus could instantly resolve all of the skepticism evinced on this website but I strongly suspect He will remain silent. He is, at the very least, a totally incompetent communicator. This in itself undermines the foundational claims of Christianity. There are, of course, many other lines of evidence that lead to this same conclusion.

      • ensnaturae says:

        “It would be trivially easy for Jesus to convince me of….” Etc. From eyeconoclast.
        This is how it was…forget the magic and trickery, forget all the comp!etely unnecessary mythological trim, that has been around for a few thousand years, no doubt…and think of it like this.
        Around 2000 years ago, one man stood in direct conflict with many of the ideas and beliefs of his time. In doing so…he was fully aware of the likely outcome (torture and death), but he did not want to abandon all the people he knew and loved…that meant, too… all in the world…and the earth itself, to be abandoned to thoughtless barbarity.
        Like me, like you…he was quite alone…a child of ‘god’…whatever that means to you,.and he was free to make choices in the matter. He chose to stick with it..to demonstrate that Love really does change everything.
        His courage in his solitude, his perpetual relationship with the power he is said to have called ‘father’….his humility and closeness to the lowest of societies creatures…his kindness to sick and outcast people….his treatment of women..were never forgotten…

      • Eyeconoclast says:

        To ensnaturae: What are you babbling about? You have addressed nothing that I raised. You repeat the Gospel myths like they’re credible history, which they clearly are not. The entire idea of our scapegoat Jesus taking one for the team is incoherent and immoral. Even if you take your tall tales to be true, Jesus didn’t really die – he just had a bad weekend. When Jesus gives cancer to millions of people (including infants and young children) every year, each of them suffers far more than Jesus doing a few hours of hard time on the cross. Jesus is King … of PR! Peace be upon him!

    • primeheretic says:

      “In the first century many young Jewish people knew the Torah (the first 5 books of the Bible- Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) in their entirety – word for word by heart.”

      This is a misattribution. What you are talking about is the well-evidenced ‘mishna’ schools of learning. These schools developed rote learning in order to prosecute Torah law code amongst various Jewish communities. In essence, they were developing ‘lawyers’ and ‘notaries’ (of a sort). These laws were used on a daily basis and were the foundation of Jewish ritual and life. Also, note that unlike early Christians, they were using WRITTEN materials (Torah scrolls) and were not memorizing passages from an oral tradition. There is just no evidence that early Christians were doing this.

      Finally, there is no anthropological evidence that suggests that ancient peoples had any better memories than present day peoples. In fact, what the evidence does suggest is that people changed and adapted stories and narratives to their own cultural norms (i.e the Homeric Vulgar Texts as but one example) and were not slavish in some identic talent kind of way.

    • Frank Trevor says:

      musanator: You go ahead and prove God exists. Do not be idiotic enough to say the evidence is in a book written by man/men. He exists only inside your head.

      One might be asked “How can you prove that a god does not exist?” One can only reply that it is scarcely necessary to disprove what has never been proved.” – David A. Spitz

  4. Leigh says:

    I believe the bible to be the word of God. With that understanding I also believe much of the content what is written who really penned these gospels is also true. God gives to man his laws and it is interpreted by man. Because man is imperfect it becomes impure. But enough of the truth comes through for us to improve our selves and become more perfected than if we had not heard any of God’s word.

    • Eyeconoclast says:

      I believe the Christian bible … uh, no, the Koran … uh, no, the Book of Mormon … uh, no, the Bagavad Gita … Your god is a REALLY poor communicator. Why does he expect us to credulously believe anonymous, contradictory, anachronistic, doctored accounts written 1900 years ago? Give me some decent evidence, Big Sky Dude!

      Why didn’t your god tell us that disease is spread by microscopic creatures (BTW, on which day did he create pathogenic bacteria and viruses?), or that slavery is wrong? How much human misery could have been averted with those pearls of wisdom?! But no! Instead, the bible is full of the regressive, ignorant beliefs of the people of the time. Hmmm, if I didn’t know better, I’d think it was just made-up mythology like Christians think everybody else’s holy texts are.

      All of these apologetics are so lame and desperate.

    • Frank Trevor says:

      If you had been born into an everyday family in Pakistan what would you believe? If you had been born into an everyday family in India, what would you believe? The bible is just one holy book of many. You just happen to have been born in a country that uses the bible as their holy book, which is the only source of your knowledge of God.

      “God gives to man his laws and it is interpreted by man.” The interpretations are so many that there are around 30000 Christian denominations. I suggest that 29999 must be wrong. Are you in the right one? How can you tell?

      • ensnaturae says:

        I never use the word ‘holy’…or other vocabulary of metaphysics…it is completely unnecessary.
        Whatever book of instructions and myths people turn to, it cannot rep!ace free will and personal responsibility.
        Different societies around the world, over hundreds of thousands of years…have come up with wildly different written mythologies.and yet astonishingly similar basic tenets…love one another, treat others as you would like to be treated…yourself. Is a part of all…

  5. vagabond49 says:

    vagabond49 says:

    January 7, 2015 at 9:08 PM

    I must say to the ‘Truthsayer’ that I have read through this thread from the beginning and I find the ‘Truthsayer’ and those of his/her ilk full of anger and hostility in his/her responses. That, in itself is very telling of the hateful and vengeful personality you possess. One cannot prove or disprove the Deity of Jesus Christ. It becomes a matter of Faith. The fact that this supposed fantasy of ‘morons’ has flourished for over 2,000 years should give credence to His claim as the Son of God. With all the attempts to discredit the Bible throughout millennia from those of intellectual standing ending in eventual failure I should think that you would take a step back and reexamine the basis of your argument.

    Regarding how can a loving God allow all the tragedies in a world of hate, greed, anger, and war. Consider that we put so much misplaced emphasis in this mortal body of ours and the very short time we have on this earth. We have created this immoral place we call home. Please try to consider that we may be spiritual beings having a human experience after which time we shed this burdensome body, tent, coat, or whatever you would like to call it, and return to our eternal home. Our pain is but for a short time when compared to eternity. Consider: When our earthly parents have us do something when we are children it may not make any sense at all at the time. But, when we look back, it suddenly all comes together. By the way, as a war veteran at the age 65, I have lived long enough to see my share of unimaginable tragedy.

    To conclude: Science, especially through Quantum Physics, is actually proving that we, and all living things, are made up of energy (the basis for light) in the form of matter. Although energy, by definition, can be directed, converted, and transferred, it cannot be created or destroyed. So, where did it come from? How was it created in the first place? That would bring me back to Genesis 1:3 – God said ‘Let there be Light’ and there was light. Too simplistic? Maybe. But then, Science has yet to come up with a better answer. Is science begrudgingly coming to the conclusion that there is an intelligent life source that we refer to as God? God Forbid!!! You can attack the Bible, you can attack religion, you can attack those who believe in God, but you will ultimately fail in your quest to disprove the existence of God.

    So, my friends, go forth in your journey as you seek out the Truth. The truth will not be found in darkness, but only in the Light. May you find it.

    • Eyeconoclast says:

      Wow, where does one start? This is a bunch of rationalizations and logical fallacies strung together.

      Only a Christian could argue that we’re making too big a deal about the mortal body and this “fallen” world when we point out the horrifying suffering of children with cancer. Your omnipotent, omniscient, all-loving God somehow created a world with immense suffering not just from human misdeeds but from disease and natural disaster. Then he unjustly decided to blame us for the mistake of a (mythical) ancestor Adam. So he sent his son (who is really him) to Earth as a scapegoat, and whose death (actually, just 3 days of chillin’ out) somehow paid for the sins we didn’t commit? And if we commit the thoughtcrime of no believing in him he’ll torture us forever?! It makes no sense on any level and is immoral end-to-end.

      As far as the desirability of faith and its longevity, one could just as easily believe the claims of Muslims, Hindus, Zoroastrians, etc. Why does the all-powerful God expect us to believe anonymously authored, non-eyewitness, anachronistic, massively doctored accounts from 2000 years ago? Why can’t He give us decent evidence so those of us who value truth and rationality can come to the correct conclusion about Him?

      Save the pseudo-scientific quantum mechanics references for your ignorant New Age friends. Some of us have made the effort to actually learn about science and harness the resulting technology to uplift the human condition.

  6. Tony says:

    Well you sure put a lotta time into your deception here …… but that’s all it is, a deception!

    so good luck with your soul on this one

  7. asdf says:

    No sources or proof of what you believe Mr. Atheist? In that case it is contested, and neither my belief of Christianity can be proven, nor your belief of atheism. Nice try.

    • Eyeconoclast says:

      Listen up here, my logically impaired brother: the burden of proof is upon the person making the positive assertion (that would be the Christian). The atheist doesn’t claim he can prove there’s no God, or that he can prove God didn’t send his son on a suicide mission. The atheist is just asserting that the evidence for Christianity is very weak.

      Let me show why your logic sucks: Prove the Koran is crap. What’s that, you can’t?! Well as-salamu alaykum, my brother!

      Ok, let’s try again: Prove the Book of Mormon is bogus. What’s that, you can’t?! Joseph Smith and Bring-em Young welcome you to the Brotherhood of the Magic Underwear!

      It’s not up to you to disprove the Loch Ness Monster, Bigfoot, or anal probing aliens, and it’s not up to the atheist to disprove your imaginary friend in the sky.

      … and he saw what he had written, and it was good!

    • Ok asdf, you win. No proof! No proof? Not absolute proof but better than the proof you have that Jesus was resurrected from the dead. Show me your proof that Jesus was resurrected. And it had better be a lot better than Matthew, Luke and John repeating hearsay from who knows who or how many levels of compound hyperbole. Paul had a “vision” – goodie for him. That proves the resurrection beyond doubt. NOT!

      • Eyeconoclast says:

        Supreme Truthsayer, we can’t fix in a few paragraphs what asdf’s education failed to instill over many years (including, I suspect, several grades twice). His theology is as well thought-out as his username. He needs a qwerty boot in his ass. See ya in Sheol!

  8. A Gift From God says:

    Here are some facts, you breath you live, you don’t breath you die. If I cut you you’ll bleed, if you bleed out you die. Here are some more facts if I clap my hands you hear, if your eardrums work properly. If I punch you in the the jaw you feel pain. Notice I used YOU, why? Because those are experiences YOU feel, not I. What does sound look Like, what does pain feel like? Doesn’t matter if I say that sound you heard or the pain you felt existed, because you experienced it. Doesn’t matter if I try to disprove it with scientifically theories. Fact is you experienced it and nothing I do can disprove that fact. No Hypothesis or theory can change it. So it is futile for me to argue against it, because to you it did happen.

    WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE YOU BABBLING ABOUT?

    Here’s another fact. The Old Testament was passed down orally not written, but no one questions that, well there are those that do but most accounts can be proven historically, even the plagues of Moses, Noah’s Ark, etc.
    NO THEY CANNOT BE PROVEN. SHOW ME THE PROOF
    Ask a Hebrew Jew that doesn’t believe in the New Testament and they’ll tell you they believe all of the Old Testament,
    YOU ARE WRONG ON TWO COUNTS. “BELIEF” ISN’T PROOF AND MANY IF NOT MOST HEBREW JEWS (WHATEVER A HEBREW JEW IS) DO NOT BELIEF THE NONSENSE OF THE OT; THEY LIKE THE SOCIAL ASPECTS OF JEWISHNESS
    they even discuss Miracles of God (YWYH) from the Old Testament. “EVEN DISCUSS…” AND YOUR POINT IS? Another fact there was man named Yeshua or Yashua or translated to Yesus which we now know as Jesus, that Hebew Jews will agree existed and was crucified. Josephus gives account to him, and Josephus was not born again or a Christian.
    WELL THERE WE HAVE IT! PROOF AT LAST.
    What Hebrew Jews do not agree with and what we Christians believe is that Yeshua is who he says he was, THE SON OF GOD. Why? Because we’ve experienced him, doesn’t matter if You believe it or not, no hypothesis or theory can explain multiple experiences away. I’m no apologetic, I don’t know scripture and verse, but what I do know and I don’t need the bible to prove is that God the Father exist, God the Son exist and became man in the flesh his name is Yeshua and was sacrificed for my remission of Sin.. When he returned to the Father God the Holy Spirit came in his stead into the Physical Earth Realm. The only way to God is through Yeshua.
    AND JUST HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT? BECAUSE YOU WERE INDOCTRINATED IN THE NONSENSE OF THE CHRISTIAN DOGMA. HAD YOU BEEN BORN IN INDIA, YOU WOULD “KNOW” SOME OTHER GIBBERISH.

    Here’s the great part whether you believe this or not is OK with me, we don’t have to argue or have discussions, you believing what you believe does not stop the process of life or change what I know. THAT’S THE ONLY THING YOU GOT RIGHT. I don’t have to hate those who don’t think God exist. I don’t have to avoid you. It’s something you’ll either come to the conclusion of, or not. Now if you don’t and you die, that decision doesn’t bold well for you once your body cease to function. That penalty is separation from God for eternity, whether it be what we call the Lake of Fire or not, you don’t want to be separated from God for eternity, because then everything he is not exist in its fullness.

    I hope that rather than trying to disprove you seek out the TRUTH not doctrine, doctrine of some mans interpretation of what he thinks the Word Of God is saying, but that you seek TRUTH. SAME TO YOU.

    I HAVE SOUGHT TRUTH AND THIS WEBSITE DOCUMENTS MY FINDINGS. YOU, ON THE OTHER HAND READ JUST THE WHOLLY HOLEY BABBLE WITH NO INTELLIGENT REFLECTION ON THE COCKAMAMIE BULLSHIT IT CONTAINS.
    As long as you seek true TRUTH I believe you will find. Continue to knock on the door of TRUTH and all the knowledge it posses will be available to you. DITTO TO YOU Don’t try to disprove facts that is only futile, don’t try to disprove Doctine it is a waste of time. Rather seek Truth and you will never be disappointed. Feel free to comment,disregard, or whatever it is you would like to do. I do not argue TRUTH.
    YOU SURE DO ARGUE TRUTH – WHAT DO YOU CALL THIS MORONIC DIATRIBE?

  9. Eyeconoclast says:

    I say Matthew and Luke get an automatic “F” for plagiarizing Mark. Independent eyewitnesses my ass. What lame excuse do you apologists have to explain why independent eyewitnesses would copy somebody else’s account word-for-word rather than telling their own stories?

    All of the Gospel writers get an “F” for: (1) not signing their work; (2) not documenting their sources or methodology; (3) pandering and propagandizing; (4) writing many decades after the purported “facts”; (5) writing tedious drivel pulled from their hiney holes. The fish rots from the head down – control your flunkies, Jesus!

    P.S. John, good job with the crazy antisemitic rants that led to 2000 years of Jewish persecution. Der Fuhrer was a big fan.

  10. Travis says:

    Please pray with me for Him to awaken from his slumber and turn His eyes and mind toward the HELL on Earth being perpetrated by the mind-blowingly powerful “elite” that I was born into. Maybe Creation wore him out and ever since He has been in hibernation. What quake, what heavenly siren could cause a stir?

  11. Chris Hansen says:

    All you propose are theories. YOU APPARENTLY DON’T KNOW THAT IN THE SCIENTIFIC WORLD, A THEORY IS ACCEPTED AS FACT. Among them the inconsistent genealogies. You will find that they are representing both Christ’s mother and father. That is why they are different. They are for two different parents. NO, THEY ARE NOT FOR TWO DIFFERENT PARENTS. If you had read them you’d know this. It says it plainly in both genealogies which must have been included for Jesus to have been a true member of the tribe of Judah. Foreign women producing off spring were not accepted.

    More importantly, what is truth? You take your information on faith just like the rest of us do. Read the stories for yourself and come up with your own thoughts. I DID. I DO NOT TAKE EVOLUTION ON FAITH. IT IS A PROVEN FACT.

    Even the most critical dating theories are still far more supportive for the authenticity of the gospel narratives than can be found for any one single other ancient text. OMG – YOU ARE SO WRONG. WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT RADIOMETRIC DATING? I GIVE UP. I bet you have no problem believing what was written about Julius Caesar, or Plato, or Sun Tzu. All of these men have far less historical support for their existence than does Jesus Christ. NO THEY DON’T. Yet you don’t like Jesus offering to do all for you so you can be accepted by God? Why? It’s a free gift. Take it.

    It’s all just theories anyway. Your theories against other theories. You have no absolute proof of anything. THERE IS ABSOLUTE PROOF OF GRAVITY, EVOLUTION, THE BIG BANG, WATER FREEZES AND BOILS, AD INFINITUM. For all you know your dreaming right now. What is that? You say your not? Prove you aren’t? Good luck. You are a man of faith just like myself and everyone in this argument.

    QUIT DRINKING THE CHRISTIAN COOL AID AND THINK.

    • RE: Genealogy – lookee here. You are wrong about the genealogy, you are wrong about everything you said.

      Genealogy of Jesus
      David to Jesus
      Matthew 1:6-16 Luke 3:21-31
      Matthew 1:6-16
      David
      Solomon
      Roboam
      Abia
      Asa
      Josaphat
      Joram
      Ozias
      Joatham
      Achaz
      Ezekias
      Manasses
      Amon
      Josias
      Jechonias
      Salathiel
      Zorobabel
      Abiud
      Eliakim
      Azor
      Sadoc
      Achim
      Eliud
      Eleazar
      Matthan
      Jacob
      Joseph
      Jesus
      Luke 3:21-32
      David
      Nathan
      Mattatha
      Menan
      Melea
      Eliakim
      Jonan
      Joseph
      Juda
      Simeon
      Levi
      Matthat
      Jorim
      Eliezer
      Jose
      Er
      Elmodam
      Cosam
      Addi
      Melchi
      Neri
      Salathiel
      Zorobabel
      Rhesa
      Joanna
      Juda
      Joseph
      Semei
      Mattathias
      Maath
      Nagge
      Esli
      Naum
      Amos
      Mattathias
      Joseph
      Janna
      Melchi
      Levi
      Matthat
      Heli
      Joseph
      Jesus
  12. Young Christian says:

    Well, although I do believe in the fact that time might cause many discrepancies, I also believe that the author of this article has contradicted himself/herself several times. If the books of Luke, Mark and Matthew (as written at the beginning of this article) are almost 98% similar, then how would they describe the most important phases of Jesus Christ’s life, His Birth and His Crucifixion, in a “strikingly dfferent” way? Isn’t this a bit too contradicting?
    Moreover, I have known the accounts of Jesus’s death since forever, and I never saw any huge, shocking differences between that of Mark and that of Luke. Furthermore, I do agree that John’s account is rather different than the others’, yet it not contradictory, and its difference is justifiable: he was the closest to Jesus Christ; he understood him the most and was the only disciple present during Jesus’s

    • Young Christian says:

      Death.
      In a nutshell, it doesn’t matter whether the disciples spoke Aramaic or Greek, where Jesus’s genealogy starts and whom it includes, whether Jesus taught for 3 years or merely one year, where Jesus traveled and taught, if He had biological siblings or not, ect… All of these matters are trivial, they digress from the main topic of Christianity: God’s Love for us. All other historical ideas never changed that Love, and they never will.

      • So where did this idea of “God’s Love for us” come from if not from the Bible which, as you seemingly admit, contains errors and contradictions. The conceit of “God’s Love For Us” is just one more example of errors and contradictions in the Bible. Have you read the Old Testament?
        Have you read the New Testament?

        “For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.” – Matthew 10.35,36.

        Where’s the love Young Christian?

        Just how does God show his “Love For Us”?
        If God Loves Us, why did he permit Catholic priests to molest their flock?
        Why does he permit young girls all over the planet to be bought and sold for sex?
        Why does this loving God like to give people birth defects.
        If He doesn’t intercede in these situations, what does it take for him to do something.
        In a nutshell, where is the evidence of His love?

    • First, John, the alleged disciple of Jesus did not write “The Book of John” Do some homework.
      Second, IF that John did write “The Book of John”, he would have been a ninety year old man, 60 years removed from the events he relates, most likely suffering from Alzheimer’s disease or at least the loss of memory that afflicts 99% of people who are his age.

      His message is contrary to that of Jesus. John 3:16. Jesus says the way to the promised land is to believe in the Father who sent Him and then a variety of other requirements, none of which are “Believe that I will be crucified to redeem you from your sins”.

      “Moreover, I have known the accounts of Jesus’s death since forever, and I never saw any huge, shocking differences between that of Mark and that of Luke.” Then you haven’t “known” them, you just believed what you were told. Shepherds/Kings vs following a star that was traveling in the wrong direction, etc.

      • Phileepin says:

        If the Gospels were written after 70 AD why did they not mention the destruction of the Temple, a prophecy given by Jesus Himself.

        Did Alzheimer existed at that time, when all the food eaten during that period was not polluted. Also the physical capability of man during that time was stronger than nowadays. They did not have vehicles for their long distance travels.

      • Phileepin says:

        “The conceit of “God’s Love For Us” is just one more example of errors and contradictions in the Bible.”

        Didn’t He show compassion towards Israel? He always brought them back each time they erred.
        And you who are you? It seems that you are the devil’s follower to bring germs of doubt in people’s mind.

        “For I am come to set a man at variance against his father”

        It is obvious that anyone will be at variance with his kindred if one is following the world and the other out of the world. This is found in politics also. A father can be republican and a son liberal, can’t they?

      • vagabond49 says:

        I must say to the ‘Truthsayer’ that I have read through this thread from the beginning and I find the ‘Truthsayer’ and those of his/her ilk full of anger and hostility in his/her responses. That, in itself is very telling of the hateful and vengeful personality you possess. One cannot prove or disprove the Deity of Jesus Christ. It becomes a matter of Faith. The fact that this supposed fantasy of ‘morons’ has flourished for over 2,000 years should give credence to His claim as the Son of God. With all the attempts to discredit the Bible throughout millennia from those of intellectual standing ending in eventual failure I should think that you would take a step back and reexamine the basis of your argument.

        Regarding how can a loving God allow all the tragedies in a world of hate, greed, anger, and war. Consider that we put so much misplaced emphasis in this mortal body of ours and the very short time we have on this earth. We have created this immoral place we call home. Please try to consider that we may be spiritual beings having a human experience after which time we shed this burdensome body, tent, coat, or whatever you would like to call it, and return to our eternal home. Our pain is but for a short time when compared to eternity. Consider: When our earthly parents have us do something when we are children it may not make any sense at all at the time. But, when we look back, it suddenly all comes together. By the way, as a war veteran at the age 65, I have lived long enough to see my share of unimaginable tragedy.

        To conclude: Science, especially through Quantum Physics, is actually proving that we, and all living things, are made up of energy (the basis for light) in the form of matter. Although energy, by definition, can be directed, converted, and transferred, it cannot be created or destroyed. So, where did it come from? How was it created in the first place? That would bring me back to Genesis 1:3 – God said ‘Let there be Light’ and there was light. Too simplistic? Maybe. But then, Science has yet to come up with a better answer. Is science begrudgingly coming to the conclusion that there is an intelligent life source that we refer to as God? God Forbid!!! You can attack the Bible, you can attack religion, you can attack those who believe in God, but you will ultimately fail in your quest to disprove the existence of God.

        So, my friends, go forth in your journey as you seek out the Truth. The truth will not be found in darkness, but only in the Light. May you find it.

  13. […] correcting each other, replacing each other, upending each other, and eventually winnowed down to Four, plus some letters, and some new material added by the new rulers in Rome, to flesh it out and make […]

  14. Richard S. says:

    Isn’t the reign of Nero in Rome evidence that a man named Jesus Christ existed? Nero ruled from 54-68 AD and Jesus Christ was crucified between 30-40 AD. People in Rome were converting to Christianity because those who witnessed the crucification of Jesus was spreading the word of what happened. Nero was killing these Christians by the thousands to suppress the word from further spreading because it threatened his rule. I don’t understand how you get that the earliest gospel was written 68 AD when the events that happened to Jesus were being known by the population before 68 AD.

    • No. Just how is the reign of Nero, proof that a man named Jesus existed? Witnessing a crucifixion means nothing. Thousands were crucified by the Romans, many may have been named Jesus. It was a common name in those days. Anyway how would witnessing a crucifixion make one want to be a Christian? It would have the opposite effect.

      Nero wasn’t killing “thousands of Christians”. There weren’t even a thousand Christians in Rome at the time of Nero, some 35 years after Jesus was allegedly crucified. Nero wasn’t killing “thousands of Christians to suppress the word”; he was killing the few he did kill to cover his ass, pinning Rome’s problems on these troublemakers. Read something besides your Christian dogma pap. Read history.

      How do I get that the earliest gospel was written after 70AD? I read what hundreds of non Christian biblical scholars have to say about the dates of the gospels.

      • Richard S. says:

        I don’t know what it takes to be a Biblical scholar, but I would assume there would be some bias in presenting work if you are a Christian or non-Christian Bible scholar. Anyways, if the earliest gospel was written 68 AD, I wonder why they didn’t mention Nero killing Christians. Roman history says that Nero, in fact, killed thousands of Christians. Since there was no mention of this in the Gospels, one can assume they were written before or during the early years of Nero’s rule.

      • Sica says:

        Nero was known for having captured Christians dipped in oil, and then set on fire in his garden at night as a source of light.- Tacitus Annals XV.44.
        This view is based on the writings of Tacitus, Suetonius and Cassius Dio, the main surviving sources for Nero’s reign.
        Suetonius also mentions Nero punishing Christians, though he does so because they are “given to a new and mischievous superstition” and does not connect it with the fire-Suetonius The Lives of Twelve Caesars, Life of Nero, chapter 16.
        Christian writer Tertullian (c. 155–230) was the first to call Nero the first persecutor of Christians. He wrote, “Examine your records. There you will find that Nero was the first that persecuted this doctrine”.- Tertullian Apologeticum, lost text quoted in [3], Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, II.25.4.
        Lactantius (c. 240–320) also said that Nero “first persecuted the servants of God”-Lactantius, Of the Manner in Which the Persecutors Died II.
        same as does Sulpicius Severus. in Sulpicius Severus, Chronica II.28

      • I don’t deny that Nero persecuted Christians. He did. So what?

      • Phileepin says:

        LOL to Supreme Falsestaff no argument

  15. How in the heck did comments about evolution and young earth end up on this page?
    CM, I don’t have to research both sides equally. I don’t have the knowledge to research radiometric dating techniques for example… but others do and they have proven that the earth is 4.3 billion years old. I choose to believe the research of millions of persons of science rather than the incredulous “research” of 5-10 creationists few of whom have relevant backgrounds in the fields they pretend expertise.

  16. Cm says:

    What is wrong with genome science? That seems to be extremely irrelevant to the topic of a young earth. Great, we share similar genes. Science is amazing isn’t it? All I’m saying is you find what you search for, and I could almost bet money on the fact you have never really giving opposing viewpoints a chance, which makes for an uninformed stance. Just research both sides equally and take into consideration more than one idea.

    • Mickey says:

      What is wrong with genome science? Nothing… It has proven that we and the great apes have a very recent common ancestor through the fused second chromosome. It proves evolution, so there’s nothing wrong with genome science. :D

  17. Cm says:

    Have you considered the context of what you are “searching” for when you research? Have you honestly taken a good look at both sides? Huston Smith said in one of his famous books, “It is as if the scientist were inside a large plastic balloon, he can shine his torch anywhere on the balloon’s interior but cannot climb outside the balloon to view it as a whole”. It should be equally of interest for you to also consider the stance (very supported, not even closely as funded) of a Young Earth. I appreciate the views and ideas you have explained and I would ask, as you have to us, for you to do the same. Here is a good resource to start at, leading to many other research possibilities: http://creation.mobi/age-of-the-earth. If evolution was the solid truth, it would have been long accepted by now.

    • Rob says:

      Evolution has already been long accepted.

      • Phileepin says:

        Evolution? Can it be proven in the lab?

        If you are so intelligent, why is evolution shown linear? If you don’t understand the term, go ask a true scientist.

    • Yeah, why isn’t the 6,000 year age of creation accepted? Oh, that’s right there isn’t any evidence for it, is there? I guess those evil scientists just made up that genome story about us sharing 98.5% of the chimpanzee’s genes. If your gasoline was 98.5% water, would you still put it in your tank?

    • Mickey says:

      Here’s an even better resource for you – http://www.talkorigins.org/

      I’ve looked at as many creationist websites as have been given me and not a one has a new argument or even tries to actually understand science. Now if you don’t have confirmation bias or a bad case of cognitive dissonance or even belief perseverance talk origins should help you out a bit.

  18. martin says:

    Who real wrote the gospel of matthew

  19. Courtney says:

    I am curious, for such bold statements to make, where and who are YOUR sources and these “scholars” you speak of?

    • jbecker13 says:

      There is actually an enormous amount of Biblical scholarship these days. Books on the authorship of the gospels can be found in libraries.

      I did feel, however, that the author should have cited his sources and provided evidence for his claims. Additionally, accumulating a healthy knowledge of the culture, writing styles, and expectations that accompany each gospel would be a valuable thing to do.

      There is a lot more complexity to this topic than many realize. The author also resigns to a number of blanket statements that do not apply to all ‘Christians.’ Many of the claims made about what Christians believe are flawed and require additional specificity.

      Christian scholars do know these things – there are always two sides.

      • Too much trouble to cite resources. I have about 50 books, 4 courses from The Great Courses, and my observational powers. Most of my source is the bible and careful reading. But to be specific, here are a couple
        The Rejection of Pacal’s Wager by Paul Tobin
        Who Wrote the New Testament by …. WAIT..
        I will create a “References” page. Come back in a week.

        By the way no statement ever applies to “all whatevers”; so what?

      • I have created a bibliography accessible from the menu bar. It has over 130 references in it. You can click HERE to see it directly.

      • Phileepin says:

        Aren’t these people in search of fame?

  20. Chris Robinson says:

    I was thinking that despite the discrepancies in the detail, all the gospels tell of Jesus as a living person, a person who performed miracles, a person who was crucified and a person who was resurrected. They speak from four different perspectives and probably four different agendas but the basic story is the same. Just like different accounts of a road crash do not alter the fact that the crash happened. I don’t have all the answers (who does) but I know God is real.

    • … despite the discrepancies…” But you believe that the bible is the inerrant word of god and the authors were directed by the holy spirit. Thus there should be NO discrepancies. Why would god give two different versions of the same event?

      These are not “four different perspectives”. What each gospel spews is presented as “fact” and it is contradictory and historically inaccurate as indicated above. How can you dismiss these contradictory statements with just a “despite the discrepancies”?

      • Joseph D. Sloop says:

        No. We believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God, not the word of god and the authors were directed by the Holy Spirit, not holy spirit. Thus there is no errors, but their will always be discrepancies because there will always be people (such as yourself) that can’t take anything the Bible says on faith.

        Now, I will be more than happy to address each of YOUR discrepancies that you have with the Bible. We can discuss them ONE at a time. Do not give me a list of a thousand or so. It will take time to debate each point in sufficient detail to cover the matter

        Do I expect you to agree with my point of view? Of course not. This is for the benefit of your audience. Think of it as a way to sharpen your arguments against “ignorant Christians” to give them the real truth. And your audience can see two upstanding people, knowledgeable about their doctrines, debate one another and derive the truth for themselves.

        By the way your church of truth website has an awful lot of doctrine in it. I’d be careful about trying to combat church doctrine with non-church doctrine. Doctrine should be combatted with pure truth when they do not agree with one other. And your site is anything but pure truth.

        It’s a half-truth.

        Just like a certain serpent we know.

      • Wait! You are more than willing to address each of the discrepancies that I have with the bible? OK!… You are on.
        Let’s take the third Truth; the one that deals with the formation of the universe and the earth.
        The bible says God created the heavens and the earth on the first day.

        The truth is, the still expanding universe is 13.798 ± 0.037 billion years The uncertainty of 37 million years has been obtained by the agreement of a number of scientific research projects, such as microwave background radiation measurements by the Planck satellite, the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe and other probes. Measurements of the cosmic background radiation give the cooling time of the universe since the Big Bang,[2] and measurements of the expansion rate of the universe can be used to calculate its approximate age by extrapolating backwards in time.

        The Earth was formed about 4.54 ± 0.05 billion years ago. This age is based on evidence from radiometric age dating of meteorite material and is consistent with the ages of the oldest-known terrestrial and lunar samples.

        I, of course, am basing my truth on the research findings of experts. I have about 7 books on the topic and Wikipedia does a nice job of summarizing the knowledge. If you want to challenge the experts’ research findings, you need to learn a lot about astrophysics before you are qualified to discredit what they have discovered. How much do you know about background microwave radiation for starters? Now let’s hear your refutation of radiometric dating. To do so, you have to refute the entire table of periodic elements that gives the half-life of all elements. It is the half-life of Uranium 238 that allows knowledgeable people to determine how old the universe and the earth is/are.

        I eagerly await your refutation of the research of hundreds of thousands of physicists, astronomers, chemists, cosmologists, etc over the last 120 years that have led to what we KNOW about how the heavens and the earth were formed.

      • I take issue with your assertion that my site is anything but pure truth. There is nothing very little in it that is not fact, supported by the findings of many others. I myself did no original research. I read the research results of experts in their respective (scientific, biblical, historical) fields. See my list of references HERE.

      • Joseph D. Sloop says:

        Yeah, just read your last post. First off, you didn’t address your original discrepancy, which was The Bible says that God created the heaven and the earth, and in your tirade of scientific referencing, you addressed a completely different issue, the age of the universe. You never refuted the idea that God created the universe. Your argument I assume is that you disagree with exactly how the Bible illustrates the universe’s formation and the implied age with it.

        First off, let’s talk about science. My father’s a scientist, he has his doctorate’s in organic chemistry, taught at West Point twice in his 26 year military career, and he dismantled nuclear weapons for the U.S. military. In addition, he is the associate head of the chemistry department at a university in Georgia. Likewise, I too have a scientific background, dealing with meteorology in the military for four years, and now with economics in the private sector for four years (which is a social science), so I know about science’s strengths and limitations.

        One such limitation is that science deals primarily with observations of present states and processes; it can only DISCUSS the prehistoric past, much less conclude anything from it.
        Your argument about radiometric dating and background microwave radiation is a valid point, when discussing the universe’s age from a human perspective, but again, science can only discuss the past, never prove it.

        Another limitation is the need to create models based off theories. This is precisely what you have done, whether you realize it or not. Models are extremely flawed and only good for academic arguments or controlled experiments where a variable can be isolated whilst others be held to ceteris parabus. That’s great for a classroom science project, but models suck for dealing with real world scientific processes.

        The last problem is built off the model issue. I found out that human biasness tends to pervade in models. Scientists usually have the conclusion built in their mind already, and construct a model to validate their conclusion. You did this as well. A true scientist is one that is skeptical about such theoretical and hypothetical approaches as they tend to be misleading since the predisposed opinion is already revealed in the supporting evidence used to validate the thesis.

        Let me give you an example. There are several creationist scientific models that explain a young (less than 10,000 year old) universe/earth. And that’s great. But these were constructed based off the already assumed belief that the universe/earth is relatively young. Likewise, there are several secular scientific models that explain an old universe/earth. But again, these were created off the assumed belief that the universe is billions of years old.

        You have knowledge, but you lack wisdom.

        -Joe

      • Sorry, I should’ve stated this earlier, but I’d like to lay down a ground rule for this. Let’s each post twice about a subject, than let the subject change. Otherwise, we’ll be “discussing” the same subject for a thousand posts.

      • I have no clue what you are talking about. How is your father’s background relevant?

        “Likewise, there are several secular scientific models that explain an old universe/earth. But again, these were created off the assumed belief that the universe is billions of years old.”

        It is not an assumed belief that the universe is billions of years old. It is as much a fact as anything can be. I have a Ph. D. in Operations Research; don’t lecture me about models and my wisdom is far deeper than yours. I don’t believe in fairy tales for starters. If you believe in your fairy tale, pray that your God would cease to impose birth defects on all those who will ever be born and heal all those who are now afflicted with birth defects. When I see that happen, I will believe … till then it’s all nonsense.

        Re: my using the age of the universe instead of addressing the assertion that god created the universe… are you going to be so literal that I have to spell out everything? I used the age of the universe as proof that god did not create the universe as the bible says he did. Anyone wishing to discuss this should be able to make that extrapolation. You assumed correctly. Why didn’t you go on with that instead of your second “First off….”

        If you want to reject the age of the universe and the earth based on the logic that “but again, science can only discuss the past, never prove it. ” we are done. That implies you will not accept anything based on science in spite of your background.

        Ah the hell with it. this is futile. Good bye. Don’t write again with the expectation of a response.

      • Che says:

        You are preaching. I have done my own research and when you keep coming across historians who agree that none of these books were actually written by the supposed author you begin to wonder what more has been taught to us in fallacy. The bible is a nice place to start for spiritual knowledge as are other religious texts but isn’t the finality of wisdom and knowledge. When one goes further back in history and understands where most of the bible comes from you get the same answer over and over again ancient africa. It would be wise study the source of where knowledge and wisdom has come from and not the version of the conquerors of those areas.

  21. HIzbullah says:

    ALLAH WILL KICK YOUR BUTT INTO HELL, BITCH

  22. rocks and salt says:

    You guys are talking about UFO’s and expect me to believe you know anything about the Bible, bunch of satanic followers, praise Jesus and come to know him then walk with the Father then tell me the apostle Paul is a false prophet..Where do you get this, your information is corrupted man giving to you by false information..

    • Where do I get it? I get it from the bible. Paul says Jesus would return in the lifetime of his (Paul’s) audience. Jesus did not return during the lifetime of Paul’s audiences. That makes Paul a false prophet. Simple.

      • just a guy says:

        Aren’t we the audience of the bible? isn’t the bible still printed and aren’t there still bilions of people reading it?

      • No – we are not the audience of the bible. Each of the authors of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John were writing to illiterate, uneducated, ignorant Jews and each author had a different agenda.

        Between them, they contain so many inconsistencies “which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written.”

        In spite of this, the bible is still being printed and presented as the word of a perfect god. It has had a good marketing team ever since Constantine permitted it in the Roman Empire (313 CE) up to and including the Catholic Priests, who in the name of God, molested boys. Sunday school for five year olds? In any other venue it would be called brain washing. The Crusades “convinced” a lot of people to become Christians.

        If you are using the fact that “billions” of people still read the bible as evidence for ????, then you lose because five billion do not read the bible.

        Put your thinking cap on, you can do better than this.

    • RichJ says:

      Right on Rock n Salt!

  23. Latino says:

    I hear you, but…I’ll be defending “Yehoshua’s” name, thank you very much.
    I wrestled one of the non-human demon entities, while back, and now I’m on the road to salvation. I have been given a lot of knowledge, but man I feel unworthy. My You Tube site is NOSHEOL TARSUS. I don’t sell dvds, nor do I claim to be special, or seek to be a leader. Shalom

  24. Gwen – You just used this website to rant your own agenda. I think your family should hurry up the process of the Baker Act.

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